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meeting_log_20141203

Mreh says: Hi, everyone, thanks for being here.
Amastacia nods at Mreh.
Mreh says: So, as the wiki post said, I'm looking to discuss four main topics tonight.
Mreh says: They are: the dwindling playerbase, the serverside gagging project, the consideration of allowing botting with heavy restrictions, and the consideration of allowing multi-logging.
Mreh says: The third and fourth points sort of tie into one another, but we'll get there.
Mreh says: Each of these points is open to discussion, don't feel that I am rambling away for no reason.
Mreh says: So, dwindling playerbase. This is kind of a given, and really the reason for the other three points.
Mreh says: We've got few players (you are all awesome), and I don't want people leaving, because having people here is one of the major ways that new people come and stay.
Mreh says: Hector, for example, is pretty freaking new, and he's stuck around and is level almost 40 now.
Josifa asks: have there been peaks and valleys in player base or one long decline?
Amastacia says: kind of one long decline.
Mreh says: There's been a slow, but steady decline, with the occasional jump of 'hey, i heard about this place from google whats it like?'.
Hector says: yeah, got my brother playing also (Rhaeger). He's really liking the MUD also.
Amastacia cheers enthusiastically.
Trystan goes “Woot!” excitedly.
Mreh says: Rhaegar doesn't want to hang out with us tonight.
Amastacia says: i may stray at times, but i always come back.
Cens says: He should've, clearly.
Kain says: maybe he does now.
Toadslime nods at Amastacia.
Amastacia licks Toadslime.
Mreh says: We've had 12 characters created in the last two weeks.
Toadslime says: that seems pretty decent honestly.
Mreh says: Not many have stayed, one was Salrylia who was a wiz here a long time ago that I re-wizzed because that's how I roll.
Josifa says: i've been gone for a few years too and find my way back.
Kain says: I think the serverside gagging will help those who want to play from mobile devices.
Toadslime nods at Kain.
Mreh says: We only had one person suicide in that time, which is good, but I don't know how many of these new people (without checking) are Rhaegar's multiple alts. :P.
Amastacia grins evilly.
Josifa says: allowing alts keeps interest up.
Mreh says: Anyhow, the player decline was sort of inevitable. Games happened that had flashy graphics, and, well, text can't really compare to flashy graphics.
Mreh nods at Josifa.
Mreh says: So, there are three types of players.
Cens says: Not all can be counted into that though, some of it can be explained how the mud is ran, it's rules and policies.
Kain says: graphics are fine but can't compare.
Amastacia agrees with Kain.
Mreh says: Oh, certainly, Cens.
Cens says: I can't say the mud has always been very welcoming in the past years.
Mreh says: I can't say I've made the best decisions in my tenure, but I like to think that I have generally made good ones.
Mreh says: And I can't speak for the head admins that came before me.
Amastacia says: oh lord, back in the day, i remember people being deleted by Sauron for multiple reasons.
Toadslime agrees with Amastacia.
Cens says: That for example.
Kerowyn nods.
Toadslime says: thats been 15 years ago though.
Kerowyn says: yep.
Mreh says: People hold grudges against places because of people though.
Amastacia says: Mreh, you've been the best leader this mud has seen.
Amastacia says: not trying to kiss ass, just being honest.
Mreh says: I appreciate that comment.
Toadslime says: i have to agree.
Kerowyn says: I have to agree.
Kain says: well ok I guess I will also.
Kain grins evilly.
Mreh says: Not looking for compliments, people. As much as I appreciate seeing them.
Toadslime lafs at Kain.
Kain says: yes I agree.
Amastacia lafs at Kain.
Trystan says: Guess i'll join the band wagon.
Toadslime bitch slaps Trystan.
Mreh says: So, there are basically three types of players.
Toadslime says: bandwagoner.
Mreh says: 1) The people that are here today, still playing the MUD.
Josifa says: i'm not being disagreeable, just missing gaps in history.
Amastacia grins evilly at Josifa.
Mreh says: 2) The people who left over the years for whatever reason.
Mreh says: 3) People who haven't heard of Dune / haven't played MUDs.
Mreh says: My main focus, in the short term, are groups 1 and 2, with the hope of drawing 3 by fact of simply being a great MUD.
Josifa exclaims: YES!
Kerowyn says: and the best “targets” among 3 might be the Mudders who haven't been on Dune.
Mreh says: I figure that the people who are here logging in regularly (for whatever definition of regularly you want to use) are going to keep coming back, unless something major changes.
Cens says: I think as we've all gotten older, time is of the essence.
Mreh says: Cens is trying to tell me to hurry the hell up. :P.
Josifa says: lol.
Kain says: my 12 year old keeps begging me to play.
Mreh says: The second group, people who have played here before, I am interested in trying to bring back, because they already have established characters, or miss the place, or whatever.
Mreh exclaims: Let him!
Kain says: his mother would kill me.
Kain says: grades etc.
Mreh says: Pfft, you have transfer, you're pretty much invulnerable.
Kain laughs out loud.
Kain says: will keep thinking on it go on.
Mreh says: Group three will have to trickle in as they have been, and I have to hope that they stay.
Cens says: Also groups 1 / 2 will keep group 3 coming.
Mreh agrees with Cens.
Amastacia says: well, the only issue that i can see coming from multi log is the pk system.
Mreh says: Well, groups 1/2 will keep group 3 coming, but group 1 keeps people here.
Kain says: we need players here so they know the place is active.
Cens nogs at Kain.
Mreh asks: Hector, as the newest person in the room, why have you stuck around?
Amastacia remembers when who used to have 30+ people on it constantly.
Kain says: not many people want to play a game where they are the only one online.
Amastacia says: yeah, it's like running around your house nakkid, only the house is made of glass.
Kain pokes Hector evilly in the ribs.
Hector says: its pretty addicting. I like the level based system and the gaining of exp.
Cens says: The gexp bit always grabbed me.
Amastacia says: i like the gxp.
Mreh says: Personally, as a player, I liked the feel of the guild I was playing in.
Trystan says: I like the ansi boobs.
Josifa exclaims: hah!
Amastacia says: seperating levels and guild levels, makes it worth the work, unlike graphic games where they mash it all together.
Kerowyn says: I don't like the gexp rate, but love gexp … that's part of the grind.
Cens grins evilly.
Amastacia says: i want a set of huge titties from Hayt.
Kain says: yes I love the guild divisions.
Hector says: yeah, i like the guild. I'm reading the books and thats why I visited the MUD because I used to play a different MUD. Not anymore though.
Mreh says: I don't say this often, but when I played Fremen, it felt actually pleasant to play, but when I had a Harko player (yes, I briefly had a Harko), the guild felt like it was falling apart and I was going to be crushed by steel beams for walking around.
Trystan says: Harkos are pretty squishy.
Amastacia says: well, Harko is a bit strained, but Fremen has become that way too for new comers.
Mreh says: FS felt mechanical (even more mechanical than the idea of IMG), and BG was interesting in its own way.
Kerowyn says: yeah I have a few alts that died due to lack of guildmates.
Amastacia says: FS wants to make me cry.
Mreh says: Remember, of course, that I played when we had 20-30 people on every day.
Amastacia nods at Mreh.
Amastacia says: FS hasn't changed much though.
Trystan says: FS should be recoded and deleted twice.
Mreh says: I hit glevel 100 in FS in something like 12 hours using only seq and MUD stuff.
Josifa says: I dabbled in a few guilds as a noob, but stuck with this char a long time.
Mreh says: No triggers.
Hector says: plus i can be comical relief at times since ive died 12 times (around 1/5 the amount of deaths as Kain already) :).
Amastacia says: Harko did get upgraded, and so did Fremen.
Mreh says: It was incredibly rote and mechanical.
Mreh lafs at Hector.
Amastacia agrees with Mreh.
Mreh says: Kain has a lot of experience being here.
Amastacia says: yeah, Kain started out as a slot machine in a bar on Salusa…
Hector laughs.
Kain grins evilly.
Trystan says: then upgrade to a toaster.
Mreh says: Kids these days with their iPads and their Kindles…
Kerowyn says: and my Iphone.
Mreh says: Back in my day, it took an entire server farm of toasters just to run Windows 3.1 in black and white.
Trystan says: and note 4.
Kain says: yes but those devices may bring them here.
Amastacia can't say much, has 3 iphones and 1 ipad.
Cens says: I think we're getting a bit off track.
Mreh says: Which leads me actually very nicely to point two.
Mreh says: Actually.
Mreh says: So, one of the ways I hope to keep people here, and bring older people back on their mobile devices, is what I have called the serverside gagging project.
Mreh says: A small part of this is live MUDwide, and my attention has been focussed completely on the IMG recently, whenever I have the motivation to write code. Which, admittedly, isn't as often as I would like it to be.
Kain says: I love what has been done so far in IMG.
Mreh says: I'll let Kain describe the player experience of this change.
Cens says: BGW also have an excellent colour and gag system already in place.
Cens says: Don't know how optimized it is, but it works great.
Kain says: well it has made my game play from my phone much easier.
Amastacia says: half of my spam on my IMG has been cut down since Mreh started gagging certain functions.
Kain says: without it it was like 3 screens of spam everyround.
Amastacia nods at Kain.
Kerowyn asks: that's in brief or verybrief too?
Amastacia says: i use my ipad sometimes :).
Kain says: yes.
Amastacia says: verybrief.
Kerowyn nods.
Amastacia says: IMG in brief would be 10 pages.
Kain says: the guild gags have made it so i can still chat and fight on my phone.
Kerowyn says: very nice.
Amastacia says: which is saying a LOT.
Kain nods evilly.
Kain says: yes before I would miss tells all the time.
Mreh says: So, I've implemented this in combat.c (the code that is used for fighting, that handles MUD hits, block, dodge, and roll), and in headbutt. Because I have a soft spot for that skill.
Trystan says: yea he would, would take hours for a response…
Mreh says: Using the information in 'help gag', you can gag or allow classes of messages.
Josifa says: sorry. i actually have no idea how to turn stuff off.
Mreh says: The removing/wearing of your exo? That's automatic, don't worry about it.
Amastacia asks: sorry for what Josifa?
Amastacia finally gets the idea into his thick skull and gives an 'ah' of comprehension.
Mreh says: Also, guild soul removing/wearing doesn't end up in the log.
Mreh says: So, that's a good thing.
Kain says: who.
Mreh says: Anyhow, by ignoring and accepting different classes of message, you can tailor what you see.
Kain finally gets the idea into his thick skull and gives an 'ah' of comprehension.
Mreh says: Let's take the IMG skill 'reinforce' as an example.
Amastacia fucking fears.
Mreh says: You know, just off the top of my head.
Kerowyn says: I love it. Not using fully due to my own hit, miss, and counter messages in HM.
Mreh says: Not … that I implemented its gags recently or anything.
Cens says: Lightning shard + reinforce.
Mreh says: So, when you reinforce an armour, there's a message that says, “You did it!” and several messages that say, “You failed to do it for some reason!”.
Mreh says: The 'You did it!' message has the following classifications:.
Mreh says: reinforce, and success.
Kerowyn hrms.
Mreh says: All of the 'You failed to do it for some reason!' messages have the classes: reinforce, and failure.
Amastacia says: honestly, i've never had reinforce fail, unless it's an item that can't be reinforced.
Josifa says: agree.
Mreh says: An item you can't reinforce, or you don't have enough guildstuff, or you can't reinforce that type, or it's already reinforced, or you didn't pick a thing to reinforce, or you don't have the thing you're trying to reinforce, or whatever.
Mreh says: There are lots of ways it can “fail”, but it won't fail in the same way that you can miss an attack.
Mreh says: When you hit an opponent with a reinforced weapon, that has the following message classes: combat, my, damage, enemy damage, success, reinforce.
Mreh says: And the opponent receives a hit message with the following classes: combat, my, damage, my damage, success, reinforce.
Mreh asks: So, what does all of this jargon mean?
Kain asks: you can see as much as you want?
Mreh says: If you don't want to see reinforce messages, you can add 'reinforce' to your ignored messages.
Kerowyn says: or as little, thankfully.
Mreh says: But, if you want to see the error messages, you add 'failure' to your allowed messages.
Mreh says: Because whitelist trumps blacklist, you see the failed reinforce messages, but not any of the other ones.
Kain says: so you can still have triggers run to reapply it.
Mreh agrees.
Mreh says: I also added a classification to 'help gag' recently, 'expired', which is, “An effect you applied ran out.”.
Mreh says: Which is also helpful, because you can gag all reinforce messages, but allow 'expired', and use your trigger to re-reinforce your stuff.
Mreh says: The system is evolving, I'm not likely to remove message classes, and as I've previously said, when I am done with the IMG messages, I will move on to the HMs.
Kerowyn cheers enthusiastically.
Mreh says: The end result here is a more playable experience however you choose to connect, with the largest impact being low bandwidth connections and small screens.
Mreh says: That is, mobile players.
Kain agrees evilly.
Josifa says: nice.
Mreh says: As was noted before, we're all growing older, which means not being in high school anymore, or having jobs and families, and not being able to sit in front of a computer for hours at a time to just play Dune.
Kain sulks evilly.
Kerowyn asks: would faster progression, reduced death penalty, and reduced pk death penalty help with playerbase?
Josifa exclaims: yes!
Mreh says: So, if you're able to play Dune from your phone while you're in transit, you might consider doing that over level 228 of Candy Crush Saga.
Toadslime exclaims: no!
Kain says: progression seems fast enough at first to me.
Toadslime says: progression is ridiculously fast now compared to long ago.
Cens nogs.
Kain agrees evilly with Toadslime.
Mreh says: I think faster progression is a good idea on paper, but then a bad idea to try to implement.
Amastacia agrees with Toadslime.
Kerowyn says: fair enough. and it WAS slower.
Mreh says: I'm sure everyone here has heard of a small game called World of Warcraft.
Kain shakes his head evilly.
Cens says: the level death penalty really never bothered me. In some guilds the gexp death penalty isn't much but for some guilds it's 24 hours of play. There's a big difference between losing 2-3 hours than 20 hours.
Toadslime asks: is that another mud?
Mreh nods at Toadslime.
Mreh says: Yeah, it is.
Amastacia says: heh, sounds like an old fart here…. “ back in the day on Dune it would take 3 weeks and no deaths to get level 20”.
Cens says: That “should” get fixed.
Mreh says: Cens, I agree with you. Death penalties being harsh should be toned down and reined in.
Kerowyn asks: so tlx and atreid?
Kain says: with gholas I didn't think anyone even went down anymore.
Cens says: it can be directly correlated from the gexp rates.
Mreh says: I don't think we need to advance faster (as I will discuss in a moment), but I agree that harsh death penalties should be curbed, if not stopped completely.
Mreh says: Gholas don't necessarily stop you from losing guild stuff for dying.
Hector says: I like the idea of Gholas but they are dirty expensive.
Mreh says: They will stop you from losing the level and stats, but not the gexp or skills.
Cens nogs at Hector.
Kerowyn says: I'd be a lot more willing to pk and horse around (have fun) if I didn't have to work for hours when I mess up and die.
Mreh says: You're a machine, Hector, you don't get gholas to begin with.
Kain says: being a machine I would not know these things :0.
Amastacia lafs.
Hector boggles at the concept.
Mreh says: Very fair points.
Hector smiles happily.
Amastacia says: IMG is the only guild that can't use gholas.
Mreh says: So, people used to say of WoW, “The game begins at 60.” (Where 60 was the maximum level.).
Cens says: You need to be killing in an area that you get money from to be able to buy gholas constantly. This is a problem when you want to kill in an area that doesn't drop anything.
Hector says: interesting. I didnt know that.
Cens says: It's a big problem, you can't play as you would like.
Hector says: well now i dont feel bad i couldnt afford them.
Mreh says: And then the level cap moved and people said, “The game begins at X,” where X is the new max level.
Kerowyn says: yeah, same is true of GW2.
Mreh says: GW2 was interesting, but nothing really happened when I hit max level.
Kerowyn says: just pvp.
Cens says: When the game starts in Dune is dependant what you do, quite a lot.
Mreh says: Except that I could suddenly craft a lot better because I did 73-80 at the Leatherworking table.
Kerowyn nods.
Mreh says: That idea eventually got me thinking though that the people saying that were right for the wrong reasons.
Mreh says: World of Warcraft is one of those experiences that people liken to crack, and for good reason.
Cens says: Well, for GW2 you only needed to be max for the world pvp. Not structured PVP.
Josifa says: I'm not into pk or dangerous mobs but i love a good quest.
Cens says: But again, getting side-tracked.
Mreh says: If you're in WoW to run the end-game content, then yes, the “game” begins at 90.
Mreh says: Or, 100? They just released an expac or something, I don't know anymore.
Mreh says: But, if you look at the game as a structural thing, level 1-89 is /the tutorial/.
Mreh says: How does this rambling relate to making progression faster? Simple.
Mreh says: Let's say I cut experience point costs across the board by 50%.
Mreh says: You now level twice as fast and gain stats twice as fast.
Amastacia eeps.
Hector boggles at the concept.
Kerowyn noggles.
Josifa says: hm.
Mreh says: Everyone who's been here for a while knows that it's not your player level that matters.
Hector says: me likey.
Amastacia says: but then there wouldn't be a point to gxp.
Cens nogs at Mreh.
Mreh says: It's your guild stuff.
Amastacia says: you'd level way too fast for your guild stuff to catch up.
Mreh says: ALL of your guild stuff is more important than any of your player stuff.
Mreh says: Exactly.
Josifa says: I am now Queen of IMG.
Amastacia grins evilly at Josifa.
Mreh says: Suddenly, in order to progress, you have to murder things that you can't really touch, so that you can gain the points you need to become worse at fighting stuff.
Mreh says: Lowering the curve on gexp only furthers the problem.
Amastacia says: yeah, Sards can run into that problem when they first join.
Mreh says: WoW has a prestige class, the Death Knight.
Amastacia goes 'Blah'.
Mreh says: I like to think I'm a reasonably clever guy.
Mreh says: Sometimes I even demonstrate that quality.
Cens remembers Fremen and broken weapons. Was claimed as exploiting.
Amastacia lafs.
Amastacia says: i remember that.
Mreh says: Yeah, 0 damage weapons to gexp forever… That needed fixing.
Kerowyn says: I hear you Mreh and know where you are headed but man, is the slog long on gexp over about level 75.
Mreh says: Benedict and I started Death Knights together on the same day, and we both found the same fundamental flaw with that class.
Amastacia says: couldn't unwield it even though it's borken, was always told to relog if that happend, but Boss was the coder for Fremen at that time.
Mreh shudders uncontrollably.
Kain listens evilly.
Mreh's eyes get a far-away look in them as A Stab-Me-Boss doll appears in his hands.
Mreh stabs his Stab-Me-Boss doll repeatedly in the face with a large grin on his face.
Mreh says: Aaanyhow.,.
Amastacia grins evilly.
Mreh says: The Death Knight starts at level 55 or something.
Mreh says: And the problem with it is the information overload that comes with starting at level 55 and being given a fast track to level 60.
Amastacia nods.
Mreh says: “Here are ten abilities. Learn them and use them all. Now you're level 56, here are three new abilities, and a skill point, and go go go!”.
Amastacia says: unless you are accustomed to the game, starting that high creates a bad learning curve.
Mreh says: There are people who can do that. But it is not intuitive, and it's an informational overload, and that is what happens if you lower the gexp curve.
Mreh says: Now, I will admit that things get steep later on, and for no real reason.
Mreh says: Congratulations, you are now Fremen glevel 100. Here's 10 more water.
Kerowyn says: I think we'd all agree that a learning curve is a good thing - right, it is the slope of the curve.
Amastacia lafs at Mreh.
Toadslime says: or higher for some of us :p.
Mreh says: I wish I was joking.
Toadslime says: i wish you were too.
Amastacia says: i know you're not.
Mreh says: That's a design flaw that I admit I made a mistake with.
Kain says: yeah yeah I want something new….
Toadslime says: i make the exact same gxp rate i did 40 glvls ago too.
Mreh says: No, I'm not saying I designed the guild, or anything like that.
Amastacia grins evilly at Toadslime.
Cens says: Toadslime, can't say I know but maybe you're doing something wrong? ;).
Cens ducks down and attempts to hide.
Amastacia fucking lafs.
Amastacia says: i highly doubt that.
Mreh says: I did, however, make a big rookie mistake when I caved to player pressure (because I was a Fremen at heart and I still am) when they said, “Welp, I've reached the glevel cap. Make me more glevels.”.
Toadslime exclaims: when i hit cap i asked you not to!
Mreh says: I said, “Okay, sure, fine, here you go. 50 more glevels.”.
Toadslime exclaims: and you did anyway!
Kain says: I knew it fremen are op.
Mreh says: I was afraid you'd quit with nothing else to strive for.
Kerowyn laughs out loud.
Toadslime says: nah just switched guilds because it takes a couple months to get a pointless glvl lol.
Mreh says: I wish I had a solution to that problem.
Toadslime says: no biggie, lots of other guilds to play around with.
Mreh says: Maybe it would be worth giving every guild a point where a message pops up and says, “Congratulations, you've reached the end of the guild. You can keep going, but it's just going to make the gexp curve steeper and you don't gain any real benefit. Have you tried some of our other fine guilds?”.
Cens says: That's sometimes, usually solved by pk and pkpoints.
Cens says: again, something that I would like to see get fixed.
Cens says: Not all guilds get pk stuff.
Mreh says: Or maybe there should be something for players that just continue to grind out gexp. I don't have that answer.
Mreh says: No, not all guilds get PK stuff.
Mreh says: Tleilaxu are the most notorious for that, but they have nobody to PK.
Mreh says: Which is a different problem entirely.
Kain thinks evilly.
Toadslime says: id continue to grind it out on fremen if there was ANYTHING to grind for.
Hector asks: this might sound dumb. But what about a prestige system like the Call of Duty games where you gut a special title/badge/weapon/token and then start over??
Mreh says: The idea of ascension has been passed around from time to time.
Hector says: so when you reach the end, you start over, but get a little something for the effort.
Kerowyn says: other muds have done that. Wheel of Time has a remort.
Mreh says: Since the last time it was brought up (by Hayt, talking about some other MUD he played on), I was just starting to play Kingdom of Loathing.
Amastacia says: fear the Wheels in this game.
Mreh says: You don't know the half of it, Amastacia.
Mreh says: So, back then, I didn't have much experience with ascension/remort/whatever.
Amastacia says: all i know is, eveytime i see a Wheel spin, i want to type quit, heh.
Kain says: i love wheel spins.
Mreh says: Since then, I've played a lot of Kingdom of Loathing and a few different Shin Megami Tensei games that handle that sort of thing.
Toadslime says: me too.
Mreh asks: You all know that I coded the slot machines solely to not have to answer “spin the wheel!” requests, right?
Amastacia grins evilly at Mreh.
Mreh says: Also, I coded the Wheel of Communism because I was told I was too low wizlevel to spin the Wheel of (Mis)Fortune.
Cens taps his foot impatiently.
Mreh says: So, remorts.
Amastacia grins evilly at Cens.
Mreh says: I've played a lot of different games that involve remort/new game plus/ascension, and I still have no idea what I would do for Dune.
Amastacia exclaims: Sandworm farm!
Kerowyn says: I can't say it would work, with the guilds all so different.
Kain says: the expanded levels you added are nice.
Risto says: Aight, here to join whatever is going on.
Mreh says: Maybe (as an idea, not something I'm going to do tonight), keep track of the number of times you reach guild level <endpoint> in a guild, and then you get to take a skill with you into your new life.
Amastacia says: well, most weapons work for all guilds, so unless it's something specific to the guild, you can add some type of honor/badge/etc system that anyone can buy from.
Mreh says: “Congratulations, you've reached the pinnacle of Bene Gesserit Warrior experience. You have been awarded one point, and may 'ascend' at any time.”.
Kerowyn asks: except FS could never do that, and some guilds would take half the time of others, right?
Mreh says: If I set an arbitrary endpoint for the guild, FS could.
Amastacia says: hmm, not exactly, IMG is pretty much inifinite on their glvls.
Mreh says: FS have “infinite” guild levels because Stryder wrote a formula that is based on the guild level, maxxing the cost at 2B.
Amastacia says: well, FS and IMG i think are the only ones that have unlimited glvls.
Mreh says: FS is still capped at guild level 2B.
Mreh says: And IMG at ilevel 2B.
Amastacia says: 2B, Kassandra was the biggest FS and i doubt they even made it past 1500 in glvls.
Mreh goes 'Etc'.
Kerowyn nods.
Cens says: Kassandra was way past glvl2000.
Mreh says: So, ascension is an idea, but one that requires some thought as to execution.
Risto says: I quite like the ascension idea, what mostly got me hooked me to Dune was how brilliantly you could grind here.
Cens says: All these sorts of things require a lot of effort, but I don't think these are the problems that needs to be solved today.
Amastacia nods at Risto.
Amastacia licks Risto.
Mreh asks: Well, Risto, have you seen level 501?
Baldur arrives in a puff of smoke.
Baldur bows.
Kain says: who.
Amastacia says: welcome to the conversation Risto :).
Kain lafs evilly.
Amastacia fucking fears.
Risto says: Not really, but I've seen almost 5y of online age with different characters :D.
Amastacia licks Baldur.
Mreh asks: Kain, care to explain what your level looks like?
Kain says: Level 533 [0\5].
Risto says: Have a decent/massive size character in every guild, yup, really enjoyed the grind here.
Cens asks: so it's capx5?
Amastacia asks: you have to get 5 levels to get 1 level right?
Kain says: at this point.
Amastacia nods.
Mreh says: Cap x 5 for one level, and the x # grows as you increase in level.
Kain says: it was 3 then 4 then 5.
Risto asks: Do you like it ?
Kain asks: level 999 is what 49 sublevels?
Mreh says: Something like that, yes.
Risto says: I can imagine some pros and cons.
Amastacia fucking fears.
Kain says: yes I love it.
Risto nods.
Kerowyn says: welp kain is just OP.
Amastacia says: pro, only wizards could destroy you.
Amastacia says: con, you're a walking god.
Mreh says: You don't gain stat points for the sublevels either.
Kain says: not true I died a month ago or so.
Baldur grins evilly.
Cens says: But you didn't, for real.
Amastacia asks: did you forget to set your transfer triggers on?
Amastacia ducks down and attempts to hide.
Cens says: You just recalled a marker :(.
Kain says: no I didnt.
Mreh says: Funny story, Kain only learned about flux backward last month.
Kain lafs evilly.
Amastacia lafs.
Cens lafs.
Risto goes 'Heh'.
Nippar lafs.
Cens says: I guess that's what happens when there's no players playing then.
Amastacia grins evilly.
Mreh says: Anyhow, until we figure out a workable system for going backwards, we have one in place that makes it slower (but still rewarding) to go forwards.
Mreh says: Just not in guild.
Kain says: anyhow I don't want to be in a position where I can't die.
Kain says: no point then.
Amastacia says: 999, i dunno if they coded mobs that big yet, except for wurms.
Kain says: I actually want more fear not less.
Kain says: I want things Mreh hasn't coded for me yet.
Kain grins evilly.
Amastacia lafs.
Cens says: Still not the problem. Less than one percent of the players have reached those levels, or glevels for that matter.
Amastacia thinks carefully.
Mreh says: No, we haven't. Someone (cough… Zaknafein… cough…) Sorry, had something caught in my throat, told me he was interested in coding Very High Level mobs, and I've made it so that mobs can be set to level ~1500, so there's stuff /possible/ for that sort of content.
Kain peers at Trystan evilly.
Amastacia says: well, there used to be a lot of people at level/glvl cap, but since new stuff has been put in place, a lot of those people are no longer at their cap.
Kain says: some of them prolly don't even know they arent at cap anymore.
Amastacia lafs.
Amastacia says: true.
Mreh says: That thing Kain said.
Amastacia says: Shitlord.
Kerowyn says: and unless we go back to having parties roaming the mud, not likely to be taken on by anyone.
Mreh asks: Mind if I move the agenda forward?
Amastacia nods at Mreh.
Kain nods evilly.
Baldur says: So nodnod.
Kerowyn says: pls do.
Risto says: Go ahead.
Baldur nods and nods.
Mreh says: So, point three was the consideration of allowing botting.
Baldur grins evilly.
Mreh says: The last time we did one of these meetings …
Baldur says: This should be interesting….
Cens agrees.
Cens says: For those who don't know, botting = automated killing without input from the user.
Amastacia says: botting can be bad or good, depends on the person using it, Shadow isn't one of the best examples.
Mreh says: The last wiz meeting in this room was in 07.
Risto says: I would atleast like to see rekill triggers being legal.
Mreh says: Oh, no, sorry, July 30th, 2010.
Mreh says: Four years ago.
Amastacia agrees with Risto.
Hector asks: so that would be like setting a time ticker??
Mreh says: Was the last time I brought up the idea of allowing bots.
Nippar agrees with Risto.
Baldur says: Wow.
Kerowyn nods.
Mreh says: And people were violently against it, which is why I didn't do anything about it.
Amastacia says: no Hector, it's to kill the next mob in the room without input from the player, rekill trigger.
Mreh says: But I want to bring it up again because times change, people change, ideas change.
Mreh nods at Amastacia.
Risto says: Well, to be honest I've written a few bots myself.
Amastacia grins evilly at Risto.
Risto says: It was fun as hell.
Mreh says: So, here's the thing.
Toadslime says: might as well allow it, people do it anyway - players wont leave for getting caught if its legal and we wont feel cheated by getting killed/passed up by someone botting - we've lost tons of players from them getting caught and leaving.
Cens says: Hector, that's in the simplest forms. In it's most complicated forms you would start botting, when inventory full you would go and sell things in shop, when you the right amount of gexp, you would spend gexp, rince and repeat.
Nippar says: long time ago, when i used to lvl, i always botted…
Nippar ducks down and attempts to hide.
Amastacia says: i've never given botting a chance cause i never wanted Mreh to slash my glvl or iban me for a while.
Mreh says: I'm pretty sure that I've been the hardest on bots as far as admins go.
Nippar says: its strange playing now :D.
Amastacia nods at Mreh.
Mreh says: I was pretty good at finding them, making them dance around, and then getting rid of them.
Cens says: I used to bot when rekill in triggers was allowed, was caught once and haven't done it since.
Mreh says: “help botting” actually includes a paragraph I wrote titled “The Cens Clause”.
Kain says: ok Mreh we have them start the banning this meeting was a sham to get you all to…..
Mreh grins evilly at Cens.
Amastacia says: once Mreh said no rekill triggers, mine got deleted.
Hector says: ahhh, gotcha.
Baldur agrees hard with Mreh.
Mreh gives Kain a high five.
Mreh says: So, you all know I'm not a fan of bots.
Mreh says: Historically speaking.
Risto nods.
Kerowyn nods.
Amastacia nods.
Mreh says: Except maybe Hector, who is new here.
Amastacia grins evilly.
Mreh says: So there's been some thought put into this.
Amastacia says: damn Hector, you lucky dog.
Toadslime lafs.
Toadslime gives Amastacia a high five.
Mreh says: 1) This is a proposal.
Risto says: I would like to point out that's it's a somewhat of a skill to make a (good) bot and adds some depth to the game that way.
Baldur agrees with Risto.
Cens says: Toadslime brings up a good point.
Mreh says: I am not just going to do any of it, I want to run it by the people actually playing here before doing anything, and if I get shouted down, I'll drop it for another four years.
Hector chuckles politely.
Cens says: I remember Mreh checking up on me invisible but me using “evaluate” command to know he was actually there.
Cens says: Good old times.
Mreh says: Actually, Toad knows just how mad I get at bots.
Amastacia sits up for 3 nights learning how to make a good bot.
Mreh says: So, here's the crux of the idea.
Baldur says: Mreh, you once caught a bot and made him open PK at Caladan AP for all to slaughter…fun times.
Amastacia says: lookup had more bots on it than actual bug abusers.
Mreh says: 1) Bots would be tagged as such.
Amastacia lafs at Baldur.
Kerowyn asks: tagged, as in the title?
Amastacia says: that must have been one hell of a party at Cal ap.
Mreh says: Tagged in code. Likely also in title.
Mreh says: Definitely in finger.
Kerowyn nods.
Mreh says: 2) Any player, for any reason, can attack a bot starting a PK fight, but bots cannot initiate fights with legitimate players.
Baldur goes '0|-| 5|-|1+', just like Hazard.
Toadslime says: haha thats aawesome.
Cens lafs.
Mreh says: This is to prevent bots from monopolizing areas, preventing normal players from getting experience.
Risto says: That would be abused so much for pk rewards.
Cens says: Time to create a pk bot.
Baldur says: Now THAT adds depth.
Risto says: I know I would.
Mreh says: We all know it's been a problem in the past.
Kerowyn says: interesting. okay with me.
Toadslime says: no pk reward for killing bots.
Mreh says: Sure, I certainly can see people writing bots with the express purpose of being attacked.
Cens asks: Would normal pkranges still apply, hence the area that is being used?
Kain says: you can't pk your own bots.
Amastacia sees Kain becoming the bot hunter.
Mreh says: As Toad points out, because it could be abusable, no PK rewards from bots. It's easy enough to implement in the combat code.
Baldur says: Pretty brilliant actually, bring back PK and satisfy botters simultaniously.
Risto noddles solemnly.
Mreh says: Also, no politics shifts from killing bots.
Mreh says: 3) All bots would have to be registered to an actual player.
Amastacia says: that's actually a pretty good idea.
Risto says: Masterbot is now assuming direct control.
Mreh says: Because point four of this meeting is multi-logging, this is a very relevant point that ties into point four of this topic.
Amastacia says: fear the old players that might show back up to bot.
Cens asks: pkranges?
Risto says: I quite like that idea.
Kain says: You have swung opinion of bots Mreh.
Mreh says: 4) In order to have any number of bots online and active, you must have a legitimate player online and at least semi-active.
Amastacia says: so main player and bot to the side.
Mreh says: Yes.
Kerowyn says: I'd love to be able to multi-log and form a party with a slave support bot or two.
Mreh says: Or, as I expect will happen, main player to the side, bot to the side to the side, main window watching Netflix.
Kerowyn noggles.
Mreh says: Basically, I want it to be possible for a player to say, “Hey, Kerowyn, think you can move your bot out of Terro's for a bit? I'm trying to gexp here.”.
Baldur asks: What about players assisting their bots in PK? Off limits I presume?
Mreh says: And Kerowyn to be online to say, “Oh, sure, no problem, dude.”.
Mreh asks: How do you mean, Baldur?
Cens says: Baldur: the players wouldn't actually be PK.
Cens says: Only PK against the bot.
Mreh nods at Cens.
Mreh says: That thing Cens said.
Kain says: unless the player is pk.
Baldur says: Exactly.
Cens nogs.
Cens asks: Would normal PK rules still apply?
Kerowyn says: I'm getting hot to PK suddenly.
Mreh says: But, it's possible Baldur means, “What if I go PK, can I have my botswarm ALSO go PK and run around like a fucking mob curbstomping dudes in the face?”.
Baldur asks: What's to stop someone from going PK and assist their bot?
Toadslime says: can we limit the number of multi logs to 2 so we dont have 1 player and 8 bots.
Nippar says: if a bot is registered to you and gets attacked, shouldnt u be able to defend it? :P.
Mreh says: You can defend your bot by logging into its screen and doing something, Nippar.
Nippar grins evilly.
Amastacia lafs.
Kain says: or if the player attacking it is pk.
Nippar says: but its a bot! :P.
Amastacia says: can't use your beefy protector.
Mreh says: So, in the situation that Cens is referring to that I think Baldur is talking about.
Mreh says: Bot A is farming merrily.
Mreh says: Player B wants in on the zone, goes and attacks Bot A.
Mreh says: Bot A's player, player C, notices this and runs over to their bot to assist.
Mreh says: Here's the problem.
Baldur nodnods noddingly.
Mreh says: Player B was never set PK.
Baldur looks blank and says 'oh'.
Mreh says: So, player B can't be attacked by player C, because player B isn't PK.
Amastacia lafs.
Mreh says: The bot effectively has the free_kill flag set on it.
Baldur says: Bots are treated as normal mobs then, clever :).
Mreh says: So anyone, regardless of PK status, can attack them.
Amastacia noddles solemnly.
Mreh says: But, player B can still die to Bot A.
Baldur says: So there would have to be a very clear bot tag for all to see.
Cens asks: Could Kain go on a level1 bot killing rampage?
Mreh says: Sure he could.
Mreh says: Nothing preventing that.
Risto says: But what if, someone aoes the bot.
Mreh says: You might have to start paying Kain protection money.
Risto says: Like a sandstorm.
Kain grins evilly.
Baldur lafs.
Risto says: And the bot could potentially kill a much lower guy.
Kain says: I HATE BOTS.
Mreh says: If someone AOEs the bot, it's exactly the same as a PKer AOEing a room full of PKs.
Kain lafs evilly.
Amastacia says: you screwed up hitting sandstorm, laf.
Mreh says: Exactly.
Baldur fucking lafs.
Baldur says: I love this idea.
Toadslime says: lol.
Cens says: Kain, you are a bot.
Kerowyn says: I love this.
Kain says: oh yeah.
Mreh says: You dun goofed, but in all fairness, the bot is probably still merrily killing the mob, so it doesn't notice.
Kain sulks evilly.
Risto says: Follow people on gp tower 1 and go ham :D.
Cens says: Defend your own dude.
Mreh says: Until it starts hunting you because you run away, and then you accidentally die when it's entering its search protocol.
Mreh grins evilly.
Cens says: Unless it's smart enough.
Cens grins evilly.
Amastacia says: this has high potential, i can all of us going apeshit making new guys to create a botting/pk frenzy.
Toadslime says: hahahaha.
Mreh says: Now, here's a slightly different scenario with a different answer.
Mreh says: Bot A, Player B, Player C.
Mreh says: Same three characters.
Mreh says: Player B, in this case, IS PK.
Toadslime says: bots pking each other.
Toadslime laughs out loud.
Amastacia grins evilly at Toadslime.
Mreh says: Player B walks over and attacks Bot A.
Amastacia gives Toadslime a high five.
Kerowyn noggles.
Mreh says: Player C notices this, goes PK, and attacks player B, defending their bot.
Kerowyn says: player C goes to town …
Mreh says: Completely legitimate.
Amastacia goes : Woo Woo.
Cens says: What if the bot is PK+.
Kerowyn says: I like it, but back to death penalty.
Cens asks: ?
Mreh says: The bot is free kill, so it's PKable by anyone.
Risto says: Player B is pk.
Mreh says: Even another bot.
Amastacia says: then you get the rewards of pk if the bot is pk.
Kain asks: if the bot is pk can it attack pk players?
Mreh says: If the bot is PK Starstorm, I'm going to wonder why you're maining Ness and Lucas.
Nippar says: its its killable by anyone, of course you would pk it.
Mreh says: That's still questionable territory, Amastacia, because it re-opens up the abuse concept.
Amastacia says: ah.
Cens nogs at Nippar.
Cens says: Some guilds get an advantage by going pk.
Amastacia asks: then registering it a bot will leave it as a bot unless we unregister it?
Cens says: So it wouldn't really matter if it's bot pk anyway.
Mreh says: But, in all cases, bots can attack each other (bots can be attacked by everyone), so there's certainly freedom to Battlebots your way through the MUD.
Mreh says: No.
Kain asks: this sounds like it should move forward yes?
Mreh says: No, Amastacia, no.
Kerowyn says: YES.
Mreh says: When you register a character as a bot, that is a permanent change that cannot be undone.
Amastacia goes 'Ok'.
Amastacia says: sounds fair.
Cens says: Only thing I don't like is the pkranges not applying.
Kain says: its a bot.
Mreh says: You can't suddenly decide, “Okay, I've finally got that glevel 80 Fremen I've always wanted, now to enjoy this freedom.”.
Kain says: there has to be restriction.
Toadslime exclaims: 80? thats tiny!
Mreh says: But, nothing is stopping you from logging in as that bot and turning off all the botting triggers.
Cens says: I would argue that constantly being pk is already a really big restriction.
Mreh says: It's still a player character.
Mreh says: Constantly being PK is a big restriction.
Mreh says: Maybe there could be some grace period.
Baldur shouts “BINGO!”.
Mreh says: Like, you're fine until level 20 (time to tune your bot).
Baldur says: Cooldown.
Cens says: That's smart.
Toadslime says: we'll see a ton of lvl 19 bots.
Mreh says: And you get an hour after dying (respawn timer/mercy invulnerability).
Cens asks: Maybe 15-30min cooldown before being able to kill the bot again?
Cens says: or one hour, if 15min is too short.
Mreh says: Which also lets you tune your bot.
Cens nogs.
Mreh says: “What went wrong? Oh, I see.”.
Kerowyn says: sounds cool.
Risto says: that would be quite sweet.
Cens says: The grace period is a good idea.
Cens waves happily.
Amastacia goes : Woo Woo.
Cens asks: IG ready?
Amastacia cheers Hayt enthusiastically.
Kain nods evilly.
Risto lafs.
Toadslime fucking lafs.
Hayt lafs.
Baldur fucking fears Hayt.
Cens grins evilly.
Mreh says: IG is repurposed into the Fremen recode I've been promising forever.
Hayt gives Mreh a high five.
Amastacia says: Hayt, can i have a set of titties? please.
Nippar lafs.
Risto burps.
Mreh says: So, it's a bit of code to write, but there seems to be a consensus of the people here that it's worth doing.
Baldur grins evilly at Risto.
Cens says: Hayt, we just want swag, it's not like we don't appreciate your opinion though.
Cens says: Mreh, I don't hear anyone absolutely hating the idea…
Cens asks: anyone?
Amastacia says: i like the idea.
Baldur says: I think it's great.
Kerowyn asks: yes, though I'd like to hear more on multi-logging. Are you considering multilogging true players in non-bot status?
Toadslime says: im on the fence.
Kain says: I thought I would.
Mreh says: I'm going to post this discussion stuff on the wiki and leave it there for a few days, so that the people who didn't come can read it.
Cens says: I'm qurious as well Kerowyn.
Mreh says: And comment, before going forward.
Risto hiccups.
Amastacia says: shockingly, considering i can't exactly write a good bot, but it gives some people a chance to play with bots without getting in trouble.
Amastacia says: and it holds a high risk because of the pk.
Mreh says: That's my thought, Amastacia. One thing I've learned from being here forever and a day is that I love writing code more than I love playing the game.
Mreh says: I can understand other people sharing the sentiment, but not everyone wants to write areas and mechanics.
Cens says: I'm just gonna come and say it directly. I haven't played in two years. I've usually had like one month spurts when I have played. I would probably log daily with bots.
Mreh says: I figure that's why people like Bruce wrote bots.
Mreh nods at Cens.
Josifa says: this is all way over my head. that's ok though. still enjoy doing what I do.
Hayt says: i love writing areas… unfortunately my coding sucks ;).
Mreh says: Okay, so onto point four, allowing multi-logging.
Hector says: yeah, this is all greek to me beside basic tickers and triggers.
Kerowyn says: woohoo.
Mreh says: Your coding doesn't suck, Hayt. You have some incredible ideas.
Mreh says: You just love writing death traps and incomprehensible syntax.
Hayt grins evilly.
Kain agrees evilly.
Baldur lafs.
Cens says: Never figured outu spire..
Cens says: out*.
Kain says: I have spent the last few days in one of your areas.
Kerowyn says: friggin spire needs a road atlas.
Risto says: Yeah there's more wrong with your head than you skill to code Hayt :P.
Kerowyn smiles happily.
Mreh says: “Look at this weird organ you can squeeze to make this other room contract which does 5000000 damage to everything inside. Actually, that amount of damage seems low, someone might survive. Bump it to 99999999 and make it unblockable.”.
Risto says: your*.
Mreh says: The Spire isn't Hayt's code.
Cens says: atlas that keeps changing its pages.
Cens asks: it's not?
Mreh says: The Spire is a Paradox creation.
Cens says: what am I thinking of.
Cens says: the mech place.
Kerowyn nods.
Risto asks: Ra ?
Cens nogs.
Mreh says: There's a weird bioorganic place on Tleilax that's incomprehensible Haytcode, and there's the Ra stations.
Hayt says: he's thinking of Ra or SoftTech area.
Mreh nogs.
Hayt exclaims: bio place is AWESOME!
Kain grins evilly.
Hayt laughs at Kain.
Baldur unsheaths his crysknife.
Hayt nods at Kain.
Cens lafs.
Mreh says: Okay, so point four.
Mreh says: Multi-logging, with restrictions.
Risto burps.
Kerowyn exclaims: multi-log! multi-log!
Hayt grins evilly.
Risto says: Absolutely against.
Mreh says: So, answering a previous question, yes the idea of allowing multiple character logins would be concurrent. You could have four legit players wandering around at the same time if you wanted to.
Josifa says: love.
Mreh says: Risto, explain/.
Mreh asks: ?
Hayt says: wow THAT is awesome.
Hayt nods at Mreh.
Hayt sends out a few hard nogs to Mreh.
Baldur hrms.
Risto says: Well, first of all, we would probably run out of areas.
Kerowyn says: I like it but do think there should be limits.
Amastacia lafs.
Toadslime says: I'm against multi logging as well, unless the extra char was your bot.
Kain lafs evilly.
Josifa says: the only problem would be partying up one'alts.
Amastacia says: yeah, areas would be over run.
Cens says: Wouldn't that be the same with bots though.
Cens says: It's no different.
Risto says: Bots you have a way to deal with.
Toadslime says: but i bot you can kill and get rid of it.
Cens says: oh I guess.
Mreh says: You're likely not going to be able to focus on four characters at the same time.
Baldur says: Yeah I was gonna ssay…
Amastacia says: 4 is past the limit.
Baldur says: That's a bit…intensive.
Toadslime says: well everyone could play 1 fremen - thats a once an hour task.
Kain says: I actually like the idea of mulit logs.
Amastacia says: 2 is hard enough.
Mreh says: I picked four out of the air.
Toadslime says: so that makes 2 pretty easy.
Mreh says: 2 is a good and reasonable number.
Josifa says: I just started a small tleilax alt. i could give him tos of $.
Mreh says: The idea behind multi- was, of course, multi.
Amastacia says: you remember DoN, Toad? we played 2 at once on there.
Kerowyn says: I like that.
Kain says: you can already do that josifa.
Toadslime says: yea.
Mreh says: This would also facilitate passing money and gear between characters.
Hayt says: so basically your bot can play with you, it's open kill, and youc oul d even party with it.
Cens asks: Kain, is it allowed though?
Josifa gasps in astonishment.
Kain says: yes it is.
Cens says: Or do I have old info.
Cens looks blank and says 'oh'.
Mreh says: Right now, in order to pass money between characters, you have to either use a middleman, or you find a place nobody knows about.
Risto says: With 2 alts logging, that would be reasonable.
Mreh says: Anyhow, like a bot, your alts have to be registered to you.
Kain says: like drop it at caladan ap.
Hayt says: drops are logged.
Kain says: then log in and pick it up.
Kain says: its not illegal anymore.
Mreh says: Yes, this means that I'd effectively be drawing up a list of who is assigned to whom, but I've wanted this forever.
Josifa says: wowza.
Cens says: I've transferred so much money one solaris at a time. Never gotten caught :o.
Mreh says: Yes, it's legal to drop stuff and log out and have your alt pick it up.
Risto burps.
Hayt says: you could always tie in the logins mreh.
Mreh says: And, actually, because you have 15 minutes where you log back in where you log out, it's cool.
Hayt says: IE you couldn't log in a registered bot unless another of your legals was logged in.
Mreh says: Hayt, I spent about an hour yesterday coding an alt registration system.
Hayt says: not sure if that is applicable.
Mreh says: It's all ready to go.
Hayt says: ah coolio :).
Mreh says: I just want some accountability between the characters.
Kerowyn asks: so I'd list all my alts, and that'd be sufficient to know if I exceeded the multi cap?
Mreh says: You know firsthand that there's been two decades of, “Oh, it's my brother's next door neighbour's girlfriend's schoolmate's nephew logging into my WiFi.”.
Mreh says: There's no limit on how many multis you can have.
Cens asks: say But this would be required only if you wanted to be logged in simultaneously with another character?
Mreh says: There would be a limit on simultaneous connections.
Mreh nods at Cens.
Cens asks: So you could leave A character out of the list?
Mreh says: Err.
Hayt says: this would open up some FUN ideas about multi questing and stuff :).
Mreh nods at Cens, shouts “BINGO!”, goes, “You hit the nail RIGHT on the head.” and goes 'Etc'.
Risto hiccups.
Mreh says: If you leave a character out of the list and I find out, I'm going to be upset and strict.
Hayt says: create an area that requires two people to do two simultaneous things to complete or require some intra character actions.
Kain says: more Hayt syntax.
Risto burps.
Mreh says: If you leave a bot out of the list and I find out, I'm going to be upset, strict, and in a delety kind of mood.
Kerowyn says: or just kill stuff, n stuff :).
Cens nogs at Mreh.
Mreh says: Benedict wanted to create such an area years ago, Hayt. He never got around to it because players don't like to cooperate.
Cens says: That should be a clear rule.
Cens says: direct deletion.
Mreh nods.
Amastacia says: Hayt syntax is the most evil thing ever, my brain dosen't function like his.
Mreh says: Nobody's brain functions like his.
Amastacia lafs.
Cens says: nobody hasnt logged in almost 6 years :<.
Mreh says: I think I agree with the consensus that two concurrent 'actual' characters is probably a good limit.
Amastacia nods.
Risto looks drunk.
Cens says: This would be kind of crazy to come to think of it.
Risto says: You could even make alt making alts.
Mreh says: With probably a similar limit on how many concurrent bots you can have logged in.
Josifa asks: I have a char whose password is unknown to me. can you kill her off?
Hayt asks: lol no 3 bot pk extravaganza?
Risto says: That would be helluva cool.
Mreh says: I could kill her off, or I could change the password for you.
Hayt says: 1 bot heals, the other spews movement killers, while the other drolls off damage.
Mreh says: I just need some way to know that it's actually your character.
Josifa exclaims: ha!
Kerowyn hrms.
Mreh says: Yes, you could do very interesting solo party stuff with four characters.
Amastacia gives Mreh a high five.
Cens asks: Josifa is my alt, could you delete the char?
Amastacia lafs at Cens.
Mreh says: And I hope that it would add an interesting dimension to the game.
Mreh asks: Cens, you're admitting to doublelogging?
Josifa says: hilairs.
Mreh flexes his desting fingers and points at Cens.
Cens says: I thought we were testing stuff.
Kain says: and botting.
Toadslime says: he admitted it.
Kain points at Cens and yells “he's a witch! Burn him!”.
Mreh says: So, here's how alt registration works as I've coded it so far.
Kerowyn says: shenanigans.
Mreh says: You log in the alt.
Mreh says: You use a command (right now it's register_alt, but that needs changing) with the name of the main character.
Mreh says: So, Ravni would “register_alt mreh”.
Risto seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers.
Mreh says: The next thing the command asks you for is the main character's password.
Mreh says: Using appropriate flags that don't log the command or let wizards snoop that information out of you.
Mreh says: If you enter the right password, it registers you as an alt of that person.
Josifa says: Mreh will be up all night playing our mains.
Mreh lafs hard.
Cens asks: and it will show up in finger on both characters?
Risto hiccups.
Amastacia says: someone get Risto come coffee, his drunken falls are spammy.
Mreh says: im in ur gild gettin ur gexp.
Cens says: “X's alt.” “X's main.”.
Kerowyn says: fine by me.
Mreh says: I haven't decided on that part yet, but the alt will clearly display, “X is an alternate character of Y.”.
Mreh says: “X is a bot controlled by Y.”.
Cens asks: On the mains finger or on the alts finger?
Mreh says: On the alt's finger.
Risto burps.
Risto says: I'm going to test that alt registeration in a bit.
Cens goes 'Ok'.
Mreh says: I have to make it live first, Risto.
Risto looks blank and says 'oh'.
Mreh says: And I have to add in daisy chain prevention.
Kerowyn says: hrm certain guilds will make for better alts than others …
Risto says: My bad, I though it was live.
Cens nogs at Kerowyn.
Toadslime says: this is all going to end badly lol.
Mreh says: It's live in my working directory.
Cens says: Finally there will be some use for bene gesserit and bgw healing.
Amastacia sees an increase in Fremen chars.
Mreh asks: How do you mean, Toadslime?
Kain listens evilly to Toadslime.
Mreh agrees with Cens.
Hayt says: he's joking.
Amastacia lafs at Toadslime.
Mreh exclaims: Ocure will have a use!
Hayt bonks Toadslime with a rubber mallet.
Cens noglegs.
Kain says: I have a bad feeling about this.
Kain giggles evilly.
Mreh says: So, I need to add the small amount of logic that prevents, “Ravni is an alt of Mreh, Widget is an alt of Ravni.”.
Toadslime says: I don't actually know but I feel like someone will somehow turn this into a fuckcest.
Mreh says: Simple enough to do, shouldn't take long.
Toadslime says: fest.
Risto hiccups.
Kerowyn says: its a grand experiment, what could go wrong! lol.
Amastacia says: you know, i was thinking the same thing Toad, but with Mreh on the job, i wouldn't want to be the one sticking my head into the lions mouth.
Josifa liked fuckcest better.
Hayt says: kali is retired so no fuckfestability.
Mreh says: Fuckcest seems like something an underground swinger club might host.
Amastacia fucking lafs.
Mreh exclaims: CUM TO FUCKCEST 2014!
Kain says: with relation.
Mreh goes 'Etc'.
Hayt spanks Josifa on the butt.
Kerowyn says: went to one of those once.
Mreh says: Yeah, I also realize that is ending up in the meeting log.
Baldur lafs.
Josifa lafs.
Mreh says: Have fun, person from 2018 reading this.
Cens lafs.
Toadslime says: I'm just one person but I'll go on record as voting no for this stuff.
Baldur waves happily.
Josifa creates a BG named Fuckcest.
Risto says: This was the place where the shit went down.
Cens says: Hi 2018 person.
Baldur exclaims: You can't unread that!
Mreh asks: Toadslime, why?
Kain asks: all of it Toad?
Baldur asks: To be clear, is it max 2 simultanious connections?
Toadslime says: I don't know what I disagree with really but 2 bots and 2 player chars seems like its bound to end badly.
Hayt says: or a lot of fun.
Hayt says: it's a game.
Hayt ).
Mreh asks: Are you worried that one of the two “real” players will also be a bot, and it be a horrible thing?
Cens asks: Toadslime, what's the other way, for all this work to be… unused?
Mreh says: There is no work yet, Cens.
Kain says: the whole mud is work.
Mreh says: This is all supposition that I could get working in about a week.
Cens says: There's 20 years of work.
Cens says: or 25 years.
Mreh says: Oh, that.
Toadslime says: if it were to bring lots of players back i would see value.
Kain says: and alot is unused.
Mreh says: The … everything.
Cens nogs.
Kain nods evilly.
Baldur lafs.
Toadslime says: but if its the same couple people here as normal…
Kain agrees evilly with Cens.
Risto seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers.
Cens says: Toadslime, that's the whole point of it.
Amastacia says: let the ones who want to abuse and lose everything have fun, otherwise the ones who want to play with a system that they've previously been denied, seems like a rather fun new idea.
Risto looks drunk.
Risto burps.
Kain says: and if you don't like bots go around killing them.
Mreh says: I fully expect that there will be people who test the limits.
Cens nogs at Kain.
Kain says: bounty on bots.
Risto says: And to test combos, what 2 guild combo best together.
Kerowyn says: yeah, I just want to log an alt and try that out. Simple enough.
Hayt says: i can see me coding weapons that do extra damage and affects to bots ;).
Risto says: For faster leveling / glvling.
Kain says: you surly have a alt char that can take most bots.
Cens says: Risto: that's going to be so much fun.
Mreh says: I'm not saying I know everything that will happen, or that can happen, but I do know I've been here a while and I've cracked down hard on bots in the past.
Amastacia says: if it's just us that are here playing with it, i doubt any of us are going to get into trouble, but it leaves the option open for new players also, not just us and the retired people. Risto noddles solemnly at Cens.
Toadslime says: in the end there will be bots that cant be killed by players.
Mreh says: Someone reports seeing one, I track it down, figure out how to make it move, and ban.
Mreh says: In the end, there will be bots that can't be killed by players.
Cens says: Toadslime, that's when you call the Kain-line.
Amastacia grins evilly at Cens.
Mreh says: But those bots can't interact with the players in an aggressive sense, and can just clear areas.
Toadslime says: even kain can be botted past.
Amastacia says: that's ggoing to be a hefty Bounty to pay Kain.
Risto seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers.
Mreh says: And, it's entirely my expectation that the bots won't be progressing /as/ quickly as a regular player, because the regular player has a higher exploration XP bonus.
Hayt says: any plans on giving perks to players that kill a bot? ;).
Mreh says: No.
Mreh says: Absolutely not.
Toadslime says: those high level bots will be competing for the same FEW areas you have at high lvl.
Mreh says: Immediately abuseable.
Kain says: if you can mutli log you surly have 2 players that can kill most bots.
Risto says: We could give players bot banning items, items that would freeze them for like 30 mins or so, (with a long cooldown).
Mreh says: With higher level players, I, and whoever else I dredge up to code, will be working on areas.
Baldur lafs at Risto and agrees hard.
Amastacia cheers enthusiastically.
Risto says: Or a long cooldown to the same target.
Mreh says: One thing Rha said to me yesterday was that the MUD /needs/ new content.
Kain says: 5.
Amastacia says: that would be frikkin funny Risto.
Risto says: Rod of system shutdown.
Amastacia says: that would be like making a new AGW.
Mreh says: I'm resistant to adding new content because 1) I much prefer working on the inner dynamics and the global systems, and 2) there isn't a playerbase to make it worth my time to write areas instead of new dynamics.
Risto looks drunk.
Amastacia says: only useable on bots, no matter what guild.
Cens says: Time is of the essence.
Kerowyn says: I don't think most of the current content is fully utilized.
Mreh says: If there is a playerbase that warrants new zones, I'll be working on new zones because that's what the game needs.
Kerowyn says: agree.
Mreh says: And, I'm sorry to say it again and again, Kain, but one player does not warrant my full attention for a week/month.
Baldur says: Maybe some areas can be beefed, mob wise, to satisfy some bloodlust.
Kain says: yes with the explorer bonus I have been to places I have never been in the last few days.
Risto seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers.
Mreh says: If you're still a no, Toad, I get it.
Risto seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers.
Cens says: Everyone should try Super Sietch, it has an anti-botting prevention system that instakils you.
Cens says: +l.
Hayt says: i've had weapons on the mud for years that give bonuses based on your explorer rating lol.
Risto looks drunk.
Mreh says: If it's the number of logged in people that worries you, that's tweakable.
Amastacia says: Sharn.
Mreh says: If it's the abusability, I will shut that shit down.
Risto looks drunk.
Cens says: That's the point isn't it. If it works, we start to get players, it's working. If it just doesn't work it can be overturned just as easily.
Hayt says: and other weapons that look at other metrics.
Kain says: just more names listed on who makes the mud look better to someone new.
Josifa says: I'm not sure where I haven't been b/c I've never been there, if that makes sense.
Hayt says: i have a coouple weapons that give bonuses based on total number of pkills and kills that you have lol.
Cens nogs at Josifa.
Hayt says: softech area has some sick stuff in it.
Mreh says: And some dying stuff and some dead stuff.
Baldur grins evilly at Hayt.
Mreh says: Also some repulsive stuff.
Mreh says: Also some repulsing stuff.
Risto says: All with the little price of your sanity.
Risto grins evilly at Hayt.
Josifa says: and there's areas I've been to I don't understand so I'm probably missing something.
Mreh says: SofTech is a scary area with weird syntax.
Cens says: But if that's all I will bow out at 5:30 am.
Hayt says: i need to find some time and “ease” up some of my areas lol.
Mreh says: Josifa, the point of the explorer flags bonus is to encourage you to explore, not to force it.
Amastacia says: every one of Hayts areas are scary with his syntax, that's why it got dubbed “Hayt Syntax”.
Baldur says: I need to find the 4 spots I havent been yet…
Josifa says: where is that? i love exploring.
Mreh says: I've reached the end of the things I wanted to talk about.
Josifa says: I hate dying.
Mreh says: The meeting log is available to everyone, I think, and if not, I will make it available somewhere. (Probably the wiki.).
Kerowyn says: well, log me down as supportive of all of it and seconding the idea of hating dying and wishing the gexp gain rate didn't plateau so hard.
Josifa says: thanks for all your effort Mreh.
Mreh says: I'll throw up the main points of the meeting up there as well, and hopefully that will incite some discussion.
Cens says: I hope we reached some kind of conCencus and I look forward to it. Have a good one everyone.
Risto hiccups.
Risto waves happily at Cens.
Josifa says: goodnight.
Kain waves evilly at Cens.
Cens sleeps at the keyboard quietly and will be Away From the Keyboard for a while.
Amastacia says: i'll agree with it all, it'll be interesting to see how it all goes.
Risto looks drunk.
Amastacia waves happily at Cens.
Mreh says: “Webster@Tubmut tells you: Consensus”.
Mreh says: Tubmud, rather.
Mreh asks: Okay, who's leaving right now?
Mreh says: Cens for sure.
Josifa says: me.
Kerowyn says: I can hang for a while.
Hayt says: lol i have no where to go.
Risto says: I'll stay on yout side, now and forever.
Mreh says: Thank you all for coming. I think this was productive.
Risto sings to Mreh.
Mreh says: I miss Nysadner.
Mreh says: He always tracked down that lute.
Mreh grins evilly.
Hector says: thanks for the meeting Mreh. Very informative.
Kerowyn says: indeed.
Baldur agrees.
Mreh says: Thanks for coming, Hector.
Mreh says: I hope you comment on the wiki stuff.
Mreh says: If you need an account, send me a tell and I can set you up. Tell your brother too.
Toadslime asks: if you can log a bot and an character to actually play why do we need multilogging for actual player chars?
Baldur says: Good to see you chaps again :).
Hector says: i will definitely see if i can add something here or there.
Mreh says: That's a good question, Toadslime.
Amastacia says: you logged in at the right time Baldur.
Kerowyn says: Toad because I'm too stupid to code a good bot, so I'll use two alts with some triggers.
Mreh says: And there's an answer.
Kain says: because I don't want to bot.
Mreh says: People who can't take advantage of a written bot.
Toadslime says: you can still tag a bot and play it though.
Kain says: but would like to play anther char if I take 5 mins to kill a mob.
Baldur lafs at Risto.
Mreh says: I can see a restriction where you can either have a second real player logged in, or two bots.
Kain nods evilly.
Mreh says: That seems like something that might make sense, so that you aren't overpopulating the MUD.
Toadslime says: the idea of 2 player characters is what i hate.
Toadslime says: you could do the quest ideas and such as a player and bot flagged char.
Risto says: Yeah I was extremely strongly against it at first.
Kerowyn exclaims: what about multi-classing lol!
Mreh asks: Two players logged in at the same time, or two characters in a party fighting together?
Risto says: I come from the era of limited alts.
Toadslime nogs at Risto.
Kain agrees evilly with Risto.
Amastacia says: me too Risto.
Amastacia says: 2 chars max.
Risto looks drunk.
Kain says: Hector wants to go kill.
Kerowyn asks: toadslime you were tlx at some point, neh?
Amastacia says: suicide was a ritual back then.
Mreh says: Thanks, Kain.
Amastacia says: he was not, the original Toadslime was Fremen.
Risto says: Suicide was a ritual when drunk Finns gather.
Kain nods evilly.
Toadslime says: i just cant see a need to have 2 chars logged in and one of them not be bot flagged.
Mreh says: You spend several minutes not doing anything as Toadslime when you attack a mob.
Mreh asks: If you could have, say, your Harko alt also logged in, fighting somewhere else, would you consider it?
Mreh says: If there were no penalty to doing so.
Risto burps.
Toadslime says: sure but i could still do that id just have to log my harko as a bot.
Kain says: I would.
Mreh says: But then your harko could be attacked.
Risto says: Powerleveling is the name of the game.
Nippar says: i would probably make an alt…because fight do last long.
Risto burps.
Risto looks drunk.
Mreh says: This is progress that you've genuinely made, with your own triggers, sure, but not without you making the thing move.
Risto says: To me, that's the biggest hook on dune, now and forever.
Nippar says: i would certainly make one if rekill would be allowed tho :P.
Risto says: To do things slightly faster than everybody else.
Kerowyn says: hrm. I was thinking that my alt would be in the same room, supporting my main.
Mreh says: If you set the character to be a bot, it's with the intention that you aren't paying attention to it.
Mreh says: Sure, Kerowyn, that's another idea.
Risto seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers.
Mreh says: But, I'm trying to offer different perspectives.
Amastacia says: don't forget also Toad, if you level up your alt through a party too much, gxp is going to be slow going, it'll be hard to balance the char out.
Toadslime says: sort of topic risto an achievement type system would be good.
Risto says: Yeah.
Baldur hmmmmmmms.
Mreh says: If alts are registered toward a central character, I could see an achievement system actually working.
Risto burps.
Risto says: Specially when registered_alts comes a thing.
Kain says: this of course is all based on if we actually get people here doing this.
Mreh says: If the people here are doing this, that's enough for me.
Mreh says: It's the whole point of asking your permission to do it in the first place.
Kain says: just because you can bot dosent mean tommorwo we will have 25 bots logged in.
Mreh says: If people are against the idea, as Toad is, I'm not going to do it.
Mreh says: Toad botted once.
Mreh says: Him and Trystan. Not as those characters though.
Kain says: sorry getting late spelling suffers.
Toadslime says: i did it to prove a point.
Kain says: yes you did.
Mreh says: I was furious.
Kain says: yes you were.
Mreh says: You did do it to prove a point.
Hayt fetches A concrete dildo from another dimension.
Risto burps.
Mreh says: And your point didn't go unproven.
Kerowyn hrms.
Risto burps.
Hayt grins evilly.
Risto says: I still have my elecran bot somewhere amongts my triggers.
Toadslime grins evilly.
Mreh says: Still logging, Hayt.
Hayt says: wooops hehehe.
Kain laughs out loud evilly.
Risto says: Somewhere.
Amastacia says: elecran…. that's a place i never got to visit cause i leveled past it too quick, heh.
Kain says: ah here it is on my active char.
Kain giggles evilly.
Baldur lafs.
Risto burps.
Risto grins evilly at Kain.
Risto seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers.
Risto looks drunk.
Kain says: I am a vote for as of now you can always go back or adjust or take out pent up frustration on them.
Kain smiles evilly.
Risto hiccups.
Risto exclaims: And get an achievement!
Mreh says: Well, it is one of those rules that are difficult to take back (not impossible) once implemented.
Mreh says: If I let bots in tomorrow, and on Friday I say, “No, bots are out again,” I'm going to lose face, and the trust and respect of the people here.
Mreh says: If the experiment lasts a year, it might be more tolerable.
Toadslime says: ok here's what i think too.
Kain thinks carefully and evilly.
Toadslime says: if you can have a legal bot.
Mreh says: There would need to be a huge caveat saying, “This policy could change.”.
Mreh listens to Toadslime.
Toadslime says: botting on a non bot flagged char should be auto delete for that char and all alts.
Mreh nods.
Risto says: I can agree with that.
Amastacia noggles.
Kain says: yep.
Mreh says: What I was thinking for a first punishment was having that character set as a bot.
Kain says: even better.
Kain grins evilly.
Amastacia says: yeah.
Mreh says: But for a second punishment (and we do have a really decent punishment log), it's account-wide deletion.
Toadslime says: but i do agree with risto that i do miss the kill in the same room trig thing.
Risto says: Deletion of all chars and Mreh also sends you poo via mail.
Hayt ponders over some problem.
Amastacia lafs at Risto.
Hayt says: mreh poo…
Mreh says: I can admit that the MUD could be a bit more lax about that policy, Toad.
Mreh says: But that behaviour was the bare minimum, “Well, sure, it's a bot but it doesn't CHANGE ROOMS so it's cool, right?”.
Hayt fetches An anvil from another dimension.
Mreh says: And no, that wasn't cool.
Risto looks drunk.
Toadslime says: yeah not something that initiates combat when there was none but like there are 3 mobs - i kill one then the next when the first dies then the last when the second dies, then the combat is over.
Mreh says: Because that bot was either 'x room' followed by a kill command if the mob had respawned, or 'wait 15 minutes' followed by a kill command.
Mreh says: I can see why you would want that.
Nippar says: bots were annoying when they entered your room and started killing your mobs…i say let them stay in the same room and kill if they want :D.
Nippar says: its not like they are efficient in that way.
Risto says: The infamous Romanian bow-bot.
Mreh says: But it gets difficult to police because if your fight takes obscenely long (read: Fremen), you could just be finishing off the third mob as the other two respawn.
Kain lafs evilly.
Mreh says: And you get yourself into a room that loops infinitely.
Risto says: Bows to soldier and soldier. still attacks your mobs.
Mreh agrees with Risto.
Toadslime says: killing 1 mob on a fremen wont get you very far though.
Toadslime says: you need lots of mobs that hit lots of times.
Toadslime says: i could probably kill 1 cymek for a 4 months and not glvl.
Risto burps.
Nippar lafs.
Risto looks drunk.
Risto says: Less is more.
Mreh says: There's still this weird edge case grey area where allowing you to kill the next mob in a room via trigger is iffy.
Amastacia lafs at Risto.
Risto winks suggestively at Amastacia.
Amastacia says: yeah, not in my case, if i had your glvl, maybe.
Mreh says: But I can probably work my way through that.
Hayt says: il'l have to read the rest o fthis log a bit later.
Hayt says: workroom to idle for a bit.
Risto says: I think what most needs overhaul, is the dodge/roll/block.
Mreh says: Yes.
Toadslime says: yes.
Mreh says: But B/D/R needs to be overhauled alongside the rest of combat.
Mreh says: Which I am not going to touch until I can overhaul weapon/armour classes.
Risto noddles solemnly.
Mreh says: Which means we're waiting a while.
Mreh says: Half Life 3 will be done before I start.
Kerowyn says: lol.
Risto goes 'Heh'.
Amastacia lafs.
Toadslime says: if d/r/b got toned down there would be a reason to play fremen right there :p.
Risto looks drunk.
Mreh says: I want to reimplment B/D/R as damage shields (if you've played Sard in the last year, you know what I'm talking about).
Amastacia nods.
Toadslime shrugs.
Mreh says: Then let them stack one in front of the next.
Risto's eyes glaze over as he enters a berserker rage.
Risto burps.
Mreh says: You can absorb only so much block damage before you're forced to try rolling before you have to rely on dodging (or some order thereof), before/after guild defense.
Amastacia acks.
Risto burps.
Mreh says: That way, you won't get a mysterious round of dodge fuckery and die out of nowhere.
Mreh says: Which, I freely admit, is a huge problem.
Amastacia exclaims: you nakkid drunk finnish monkey!
Risto looks drunk.
Risto says: Oh yes.
Risto says: The best and only kind.
Kerowyn says: afk a bit.
Kerowyn will be Away From the Keyboard for a while.
Kain thanks Mreh evilly and evilly.
Kain says: gotta go bed calling.
Risto looks drunk.
Amastacia asks: evilly and evilly?
Toadslime says: cya kain.
Kain smiles evilly.
Amastacia waves happily at Kain.
Mreh nogs at Kain.
Mreh says: Alright, I'm going to call things here.
Amastacia nods.
Mreh says: Toad, and really any of you, feel free to send me tells/mudmail for further discussion.
Mreh says: Also, this stuff will be up on the wiki, please do comment.

meeting_log_20141203.txt · Last modified: 2014/12/04 00:05 by mreh